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On the January 9 episode of The Joe Rogan Experience podcast, filmmaker Mel Gibson talked about Sedevacantism and criticized Pope Francis for his alleged religious pluralism, referring to the October 2019 Pachamama incident in Vatican City.
“We’ve got a Pope that brought a South American idol into the church to worship… Pachamama… It’s a kind of a South American God…” Mel Gibson said.
For the unversed, Pachamama refers to an ancient pagan female deity worshipped by Amazonian and Andean natives. She symbolized Mother Earth, according to the website Machu Travel Peru.
Meanwhile, as per the Where Peter Is website, Sedevacantism is the belief held by a minority of traditionalist Catholics that the Office of Pope is vacant and has remained so since the 1960s.
More about Pachamama amid Mel Gibson’s Pope Francis remark
According to Machu Travel Peru, the ancient goddess Pachamama represents Mother Nature, who provides nutrition, support, and shelter to her children, aka the earthlings, and helps maintain their life cycle. In modern times, she has also been associated with harvest, fertility, generosity, abundance, mountains, and earthquakes, among other things.
The outlet explains that, unlike popular belief, Pachamama is not a Spanish term but rather has its root in the ancient Quechua language, which the Inca tribe used. While “Pacha” literally translates to universe/ world/ earth, “Mama” translates to “Mother.”
While the exact origin can’t be traced, the website cited that Pachamama emerged before the 13th century among Incas, Andeans, and Amazonians. It symbolizes the female soul of nature and the provider of everything, including food, water, air, fertility, animals, plants, geological phenomena, and more, especially in Peru.
What was Pope Francis’ Pachamama controversy?
In early October 2019, wooden statues resembling Pachamama were thrown into the Tiber River in Rome. In the wake of this, Pope Francis issued a public apology during the then Vatican City’s Synod of Bishops on the Amazon session, a seminar where the Church's influence and pastoral ministry in the Amazonian region of South America is discussed.
"As bishop of this diocese, I ask forgiveness from those who have been offended by this gesture," the Pope shared.
He further said the statues were intact and had been rescued from the river. The statues were preserved in the offices of Italy’s Head of National Police. Later, they were displayed at the Carmelite Church of Santa Maria in Traspontina and exhibited during several events and rituals between October 6 and 27.
During the October 4 tree-plating ceremony in the Vatican Gardens, presided over by Pope Francis, the figurines were displayed for the view of the church members. Three days later, they were placed in front of Saint Peter’s main altar and transported to the Synod Hall during a procession.
On October 21, a Catholic named Alexander Tschugguel, who was outraged by the entry of the pagan deity into their Church, considered it a violation of the first of the Ten Commandments. He stole them from Carmelite Church of Santa Maria in Traspontina and threw them back into the Tiber River as the Bishop of Rome faced religious pluralism allegations.
In response, on October 25, Pope Francis shared that the Pachamama-like statues were displayed “without idolatrous intentions,” as per a Vatican press office-issued transcript. Replacements also arrived in Traspontina. Two days later, during the closing mass for the Synod, the Pope accepted a bowl used in the worship of the figurines and placed it on the altar.
Notably, believers and reporters referred to the figurine as “Our Lady of the Amazon” and “Blessed Virgin Mary.” However, Pope Francis referred to it as Pachamama.
Meanwhile, spokespersons from the Vatican Church told the media at the time that the statues represented “life” and had no “religious” significance. Head of Vatican’s communications office Paolo Ruffini shared:
"Fundamentally, it represents life. And enough. I believe to try and see pagan symbols or to see... evil, it is not," he stated.
He added that “it represents life through a woman” and compared it to a “tree,” calling it a “sacred symbol.”
Exploring Mel Gibson’s latest take on the Pachamama controversy
During the latest episode of The Joe Rogan Experience, Mel Gibson addressed the Pachamama controversy and called out the Pope. He said the pagan idol’s arrival in the Vatican constituted “apostasy.”
“It’s a falling away. The very nature of apostasy is that you have to be part of it to fall away from it. It’s an inside job. It isn’t good,” he mentioned.
When asked whether there’s a motive behind it, the 69-year-old New Yorker noted, “Probably, I do not know!”
Mel Gibson told Joe Rogan that there was “good” and “evil” and the Church was “slugging it out for the souls of mankind.” The Lethal Weapon star added that there were “bigger things at play” and “institutions” that attempted to “touch on the divine” were going to be impacted by the “great slug-fest between good and evil.”
This is not the first time Mel Gibson has spoken about Pope Francis' Pachamama scandal. Earlier, during a January 2022 interview with ExtraTV, Mel Gibson shared:
"Institutions are as good or as bad as the people in it, running it. It is having a bit of a rugged time right now and my question is, who's hiring [the bishops]? I don't think it's Jesus. Is it [Pope] Francis? Who's hiring Francis? Is it Pachamama? [An Inca Goddess]."
Mel Gibson added that the Catholic Church needed to go "back to the basics" and do some "housecleaning." He also said it was "lamentable" how the institution had become "corrupt" over the years.
“There was nothing wrong with the Catholic Church before Vatican II's reforms. It didn't need to be fixed. It was doing pretty well... I think there's going to need to be a housecleaning. It is going to have to come back to some sort of equilibrium in the future,” the 'Father Stu' maker noted.
In July 2024, Mel Gibson publicly condemned Pope Francis for excommunicating Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano.
For those unaware, Mel Gibson is a Sedevacantist, meaning he believes the holy rank has remained vacant since Pope Pius XII's demise in 1958. This belief also states that all succeeding popes have not been "true" because they failed to preserve the orthodox nature of the Catholic Church.
